Advertising
Advertising

GTD Leaders: A Lifehack Exclusive Interview with David Allen and Mike Williams

GTD Leaders: A Lifehack Exclusive Interview with David Allen and Mike Williams

Editor’s Note: Lifehack was granted an exclusive opportunity to speak with both David Allen, founder of the David Allen Company, and the company’s new CEO, Mike Williams. As the new year begins, this is a great opportunity to learn about GTD from the man who created it and the men who plan to move it forward from here on out. Enjoy.

Lifehack: We have David Allen of the David Allen Company here. What’s your role now David – are you founder, are you chief innovation officer, or…?

David Allen: I am chief evangelist and visionary – that’s probably my major role. I still have a good bit of operational responsibilities – particularly in terms of our program development, content, QA and so forth that I’ve still got my hands into. But Mike Williams is pretty much taking over most of all of the operational, strategic and resource allocation side of the game.

LH: And speaking of which, the new CEO of the David Allen Compan is here as well, Mike Williams.

Mike Williams: Thank you very much. It’s great to be here. I’m looking forward to the conversation.

LH: First off, we receive this press release indicating that Mike Williams was going to become the CEO of the David Allen Company, and I had never heard of the man before. David, what drew you to Mike in terms of bringing him on board as the CEO of the David Allen Company and what was the process to bring him into the fold?

DA: Well, that is a long story I’ll try to shorten it and not bore you to tears with all the history of this. But basically several years ago my wife Kathryn and I decided we were at a fork in the road where we said, “Look, do (we) just want to keep this individual and be sort of the source of this…and maybe build a community, a net community or a network community, not have an organization and try to roll this any bigger than just my own personal game?” And we decided that we didn’t. The press was great, the world was just was waking up, the book (Getting Things Done) was in 30 languages, and the world was not right here at our door.

    David Allen (Photo via David Allen Company)

    And you know, why hold this incredible methodology that seems to be transformative to everybody that doesn’t have a social work, gender or professional bias at all – and is a global thing– back? So we said, “Let’s do it,” and that started us down the path to try to figure out how do we operationalize this, how do we build a business to essentially distribute this educational model and have a business model at the same time so that it’s viable and can expand.

    But – long story short – I decided I needed to find a way to structure the organization or to build a process so that it could be more self-managing and bring on the kind of people that would be interested in running this and taking this on – because I certainly wasn’t going to do it by myself. At one point I said, look who would be the ideal person for all of this and I just had Mike in my mind.

    We’d met, he had been part of my network but I’d never had any kind of conversation – I mean, the guy was a senior guy at GE. So I didn’t know if this guy would ever have wanted to run this company. So I just raised a flag and waited to see what would happen. Mike and I had lunch last May back in Boston and I just sort of floated the idea, “Hey, would you ever consider…”

    Advertising

    And that’s how it happened.

    LH: Mike what drew you into the idea of becoming CEO of the David Allen Company? Is it a different slant in terms of, say, running GE, which still obviously involves a lot of time management and project management? What drew you to this whole new aspect of your life?

    MW: I think it all starts back in 2004 when I got exposed to the GTD methodology. And if I can point to one book that has really changed and shaped my life for better, it’s this particular methodology. And the company I was working for at the time grew up and then got acquired by General Electric later on. So it has helped me both in the previous life, then transitioning to one of the largest companies in the world, and then also taking on new responsibilities within that large company.

    But the aspirations with respect to a person’s career has a lot of different dimensions. I’ve been in the healthcare IT information technology space for over 23 years, largely focused on services side of things. And during that time I’ve worked in the organizational development department. I’ve run four different types of education businesses within GE, and been part of services teams that are really trying to transform healthcare.

    At some point in time though, my thinking and what GE taught me really started to spark my entrepreneurial spirit. Before David even approached me I was doing my ideal scene imagining and I was thinking to myself that it would be fun to get back a smaller private company, ideally under a hundred people who were doing really cool work. You know, stuff that’s kind of changing their part of the world and would align to my value system.

    So I kind of chalk it up to “be careful what you ask and what you wish for because somebody out there in the universe may call your bluff”. And that’s exactly what happened.

    That day I showed up and had lunch with David and Kahtryn was…I don’t know what the colliding of two ideal scenes looks like but that’s probably the closest that I had ever been. Because here we have a private company – check – with under a hundred people – check – doing really cool work (…work that’s really helping people because that’s a big value alignment for me) – check – has a great product and a great brand – check. Then I also asked myself if I would I love doing this job every day. That was a “triple check” because I was such GTD enthusiast before. Just imagine getting to wake up every day and playing the space! It’s just wonderful.

    So really the alignment of the opportunity plus all the wonderful things that I learned at GE in my career could be directly applicable to this new opportunity in this new game that I want to play for the next 20 to 30 years in my career…and have a lot of fun at it.

    LH: David you and I have had this conversation before where we talked about how January – and correct me if I’m wrong – is more of a time of reflection and cleaning house as opposed to just starting brand new things. What’s the one thing that you’d recommend people do to prepare themselves for maybe a chance of alignment like you guys had for the coming year? We’ll start with you David.

    DA: You know, I’m going to be a broken record, but if you’re really ready to take the next chapter the first thing you need to do is start to pay attention to what has your attention and basically externalize all of that and step back and take a look. You need a map, essentially. Get a map of where you are, what’s true, what’s pulling on you, what’s there and as best as you can objectify that.

    Advertising

    There are two aspects to that. One is sort of acknowledgment and a completion – sit down and at the end of the year (and ask) what have we accomplished? What’s true? How can we pat ourselves in the back? What are issues we’ve come up with? What’s the current reality state there? So there’s the current realities looking backward in terms of a historical sense just to get closure on that, and to get a little bit of a step outside of ourselves and see it. And then there is current reality, what’s pulling on us what’s attracting us, what’s pushing on us, what’s also true right now? Where is the creative dissonance and the current reality…essentially, that’s looking forward.

    So those polarities actually come together with doing a real current reality externalization of that and get it out of the psyche as opposed to try and manage all those factors. I mean, we’re living such complex lives – there’s no way on earth we can keep all that internalized and really trust our judgment on that. So that’s part of the GTD methodology and a real core piece of it. It’s called “get this out of your head so it frees up the flow” as opposed to being a log jam.

    LH: Mike, what are your thoughts on this?

    MW: For me it’s about freeing up space and freeing up that space to let your mind wander a bit. Because the ability to look backwards and see what you accomplished, to reflect on what is kind of in the subconscious of your mind and then the other thing would be to have the courage to actually dream. It’s funny, I’ve worked with a lot of people and when you ask them to write down your ideal scenario it’s one of those muscles that hasn’t been exercised that much.

    So one of the cool areas where I often find myself kind of drifting into this space naturally is just getting in your car and driving down the highway for about three hours, see what shows up in your mind, and just pay attention to what starts coming forward. That is often when I have interesting thoughts or the things that are tugging on me surface. But I think the reason for that is because I found a space to have that thinking space. So if you want to go into that deep reflective mode try to find that space where you can get that deep thinking space, have some tools there so you can collect what’s on your mind just as it shows up and then get it out of your mind, park it and then come back and look at it and see what it’s telling you.

    LH: Further to that…David, is this a time of year where it’s easier for people to grab on to probably one of the tougher components of GTD for people to “get”: The Horizons of Focus? Is this the time of year when it is the best time – the most capable to grab on to those and look forward – as opposed to putting in time and just capturing and capturing? Is this a good time to look at that and really get clear on what we’re looking for down the road?

    DA: Oh, sure. You know, any kind of icon that you can use or any sort of metaphorical sort of thing that we can use to back off and say, “Hey, you know…it’s time for a new game.” That’s why actually travel (works so much for this).

    Travel is a handy illusion that we can sort of pretend that we can show up a new person in a new way, I mean to Mike’s point, driving – getting a little white line fever and just driving. Get somewhere new, give yourself the chance to get out of the old conditioning and “same old, same old.” So, obviously (this time of year is a) great time to do that. You could use Spring Cleaning, you can use Summer Solstice, you could use anything…anything like that which gives you an opportunity to say, “Let’s blow a whistle,” and just call a halt in the game and step back.

    Anything that can help you lift a little bit – that’s just part of the GTD methodology is a regular reflection and review modality. And there a lot of different horizons to do that in but it’s you know, boy we all get down on the weeds and wrapped around the axle is tight as anything. And we need to go manage the forests instead of just hugging the trees. Not all the time, we all have to be down on the day to day operational stuff but boy that can get really old and tiring if you don’t lift back up. So obviously new year is a great opportunity to you know use that for that purpose.

    LH: Mike, there is an interesting article by Cal Newport where he talked about the “post-productivity era” and he talked about how we were obsessed with the tools that need to be used to get productive as opposed to actually being productive. Do you think we are at a point where the tools are now going to be able to work synergistically more with the greater public in terms of getting things done? Do you tend to agree with that or do you think that’s it’s a healthy combination of both?

    Advertising

      Mike Williams (Photo via Twitter)

      MW: I think the productivity conversation probably belongs more in the thinking pattern behavior pattern area because when you look at GTD it’s really neutral to any particular tool. And some of the most sophisticated people are actually doing GTD on paper. But what’s changing within them is the thought pattern that they bring to all the stuff that’s entering their lives. So the analogy I love to use is that I kind of think of GTD as a Star Wars kind of thing. It’s an epic battle between you versus the stuff in your life – and you’ve got your lightsaber out and if you can carve out the stuff into tiny pieces then you own the stuff. But if you let stuff continue to grow, it will come in and it will overwhelm you.

      It’s that discipline – that kind of Jedi discipline – of being able to carve the stuff, assign your relationship to it so you can control it versus it controlling you. That kind of stuff transcends any particular tool. What you need to do though is find a system that you trust to put these little pieces in so that you can bump into them where they make sense to you and where they create meaning to you. So it’s those little rituals, those habits, those behaviors that need to change. If you find a tool to align to those, fantastic, that’s an important part of the system.

      So I would have to agree with the premise – let’s transcend the tool, let’s go to the thought patterns and then go back to the tools that provide the form and the system that work for you. And the thing I love about GTD is people can be on totally different tools and be very, very productive. And it’s not the tool, but it’s more of the thinking process.

      LH: You brought up an interesting point, and I want to take this to David. Do you think people are heading back towards paper more and more because of the onslaught of information that comes our way? Do you think paper is “making a comeback”?

      DA: Actually, it’s making a come forward. It’s different usage of it. Any of those things can get in your way and any of those things can work. To Mike’s point, even though we’ve been introduced to emotional intelligence and I think we’ve got to understand the value of that, we need to move into mental intelligence. People are using their psyche still to capture all kinds of stuff and to avoid decisions and it’s becoming this huge log jam, this huge constipation on the psyche and that absolutely cannot endure with the world that we’re in.

      What we have to do is we have to be able to externalize that capture so that that’s not banging around the psyche and then also make decisions about that stuff that we have allowed come to our ten acres that we have captured. That whole process of capturing and then making decisions is really critical to get it out of the psyche – back to Mike’s point – so that it frees up intuitive intelligence to be able to use it for what it needs to be, as opposed to just truly log jam in terms of creative flow. So where we’re getting to is understanding the necessity for creative flow, the necessity to be able to manage all of these things with appropriate placeholders. So understanding how to deal with paper and Evernote or Outlook or whatever, all of those tools are that just become potentially very valuable placeholders for this.

      But again, it’s back to the thought process that we once you do that, any of these things work. I also think there is a reason you start to see paper as a way to reflect a larger context and relationships between things than it is on the computer. It’s still hard to flip pages on the computer and see them in your face like they can on a paper planner. We’ll get there – and it’s going that direction – but I think it’s the moving forward with understanding a new way to use these tools and why these tools are so valuable.

      That’s why GTD hit such a nerve in the tech community; it was because suddenly there was a way that was a non-tech means that actually turbocharged everybody’s cool gear and gave them a way to actually use what they were already using and really liked using. But now it gave them a way to use that in such a way that it just took off like crazy. So that’s true with paper as well as with the high tech stuff.

      LH: Mike, what do you think of the term “lifehack”, “lifehacker” and all of the “lifehackery” stuff? Do you think we’re confusing common sense with lifehacks? Or do you think that it’s more of an anomaly when that happens?

      MW: I absolutely love the term lifehack because what it expresses to me is the spirit of experimentation in the pursuit of what works for me in my life, what’s true. And I just love the idea of getting out there, putting things in play, experimenting, testing your hypothesis and seeing if it resonates with you. So lif hacking your way through life…I think that’s called life. I think it’s absolutely essential. It turns it into a very interesting and creative game when you do something like that.

      Advertising

      LH: David, what about yourself?

      DA: I totally agree. I think you know all of life is a hack. Like I woke up – I was born – asking myself, “How much easier can I do this?” All they did was just put a name of what I’ve always done as far as I can remember.

      People have always said that (I’ve) always been organized; that’s sort of a misconception that GTD is really about organization. But I’ve always (tried to figure out) how much easier I can get from here to there. I’m always thinking that way. Somebody just put a name on it.

      LH: I’ll share what my wish list item is for 2012. My wish list item for 2012 is a return of The GTD Summit. Mike, what about yourself?

      MW: Boy, that’s a big question. So you know my wish in 2012 for GTD is the expansion of the community. The GTD Summit would be part of that, reaching out through our online presence through GTD Connect and also in 2012 we’re going to be expanding internationally. So all those things combined equals lives impacted and lives touched by our methodology, and you know we carry the premise that when somebody engages with us in this methodology that their life will be changed in a positive way. And if we change somebody’s life in positive way then that’s a very powerful place to play.

      That would be a major intention that I’m carrying forward. As well, my family currently lives in Burlington Vermont and we’re moving to Ojai, California. So making a successful transition for my family is something that definitely has my attention for 2012.

      LH: David, what about yourself?

      DA: You know just lowering the barrier to entry globally for GTD, to get people to be attracted to it, to find out what it is and to allow for us to be able to build an elegant path and a recognition of this as a lifelong and lifetime thing to play with and to play in. I look at it now much like a martial art. Forty and fifty years ago very few people even know what they were. And they’ve spread around the world and it didn’t oversimplify it. It was a still a very sophisticated, very powerful thing to do and yet it took of virally around the world. And I see GTD being the same thing.

      That’s what I would love to see. Finding great ways to get a lot more people engaged, and then building the highway out there for people to stay on board. Just keep taking this and being supportive and developing this and supporting each other as a global community.

      LH: David and Mike, I’d like to thank both of you for taking time to speak with me for Stepcase Lifehack.

      DA: Our pleasure.

      MW: Yes, thank you so much – and thank you everybody at Lifehack too. You do great work.

      More by this author

      Mike Vardy

      A productivity specialist who shows you how to define your day, funnel your focus, and make every moment matter.

      4 Simple Steps to Brain Dump for a Smarter Brain (Beginner’s Guide) Why Is Productivity Important? 10 Reasons to Become More Productive Get What Matters Done by Scheduling Time Blocks The Ultimate Way to get to Inbox Zero How to Use a Calendar to Create Time and Space

      Trending in Featured

      1 The Science of Setting Goals (And How It Affects Your Brain) 2 How to Stay Motivated and Reach Your Big Goals in Life 3 How to Take Notes Effectively: Powerful Note-Taking Techniques 4 How to Stop Procrastinating: 11 Practical Ways for Procrastinators 5 50 Businesses You Can Start In Your Spare Time

      Read Next

      Advertising
      Advertising
      Advertising

      Last Updated on July 17, 2019

      The Science of Setting Goals (And How It Affects Your Brain)

      The Science of Setting Goals (And How It Affects Your Brain)

      What happens in our heads when we set goals?

      Apparently a lot more than you’d think.

      Goal setting isn’t quite so simple as deciding on the things you’d like to accomplish and working towards them.

      According to the research of psychologists, neurologists, and other scientists, setting a goal invests ourselves into the target as if we’d already accomplished it. That is, by setting something as a goal, however small or large, however near or far in the future, a part of our brain believes that desired outcome is an essential part of who we are – setting up the conditions that drive us to work towards the goals to fulfill the brain’s self-image.

      Apparently, the brain cannot distinguish between things we want and things we have. Neurologically, then, our brains treat the failure to achieve our goal the same way as it treats the loss of a valued possession. And up until the moment, the goal is achieved, we have failed to achieve it, setting up a constant tension that the brain seeks to resolve.

      Advertising

      Ideally, this tension is resolved by driving us towards accomplishment. In many cases, though, the brain simply responds to the loss, causing us to feel fear, anxiety, even anguish, depending on the value of the as-yet-unattained goal.

      Love, Loss, Dopamine, and Our Dreams

      The brains functions are carried out by a stew of chemicals called neurotransmitters. You’ve probably heard of serotonin, which plays a key role in our emotional life – most of the effective anti-depressant medications on the market are serotonin reuptake inhibitors, meaning they regulate serotonin levels in the brain leading to more stable moods.

      Somewhat less well-known is another neurotransmitter, dopamine. Among other things, dopamine acts as a motivator, creating a sensation of pleasure when the brain is stimulated by achievement. Dopamine is also involved in maintaining attention – some forms of ADHD are linked to irregular responses to dopamine.[1]

      So dopamine plays a key role in keeping us focused on our goals and motivating us to attain them, rewarding our attention and achievement by elevating our mood. That is, we feel good when we work towards our goals.

      Dopamine is related to wanting – to desire. The attainment of the object of our desire releases dopamine into our brains and we feel good. Conversely, the frustration of our desires starves us of dopamine, causing anxiety and fear.

      Advertising

      One of the greatest desires is romantic love – the long-lasting, “till death do us part” kind. It’s no surprise, then, that romantic love is sustained, at least in part, through the constant flow of dopamine released in the presence – real or imagined – of our true love. Loss of romantic love cuts off that supply of dopamine, which is why it feels like you’re dying – your brain responds by triggering all sorts of anxiety-related responses.

      Herein lies obsession, as we go to ever-increasing lengths in search of that dopamine reward. Stalking specialists warn against any kind of contact with a stalker, positive or negative, because any response at all triggers that reward mechanism. If you let the phone ring 50 times and finally pick up on the 51st ring to tell your stalker off, your stalker gets his or her reward, and learns that all s/he has to do is wait for the phone to ring 51 times.

      Romantic love isn’t the only kind of desire that can create this kind of dopamine addiction, though – as Captain Ahab (from Moby Dick) knew well, any suitably important goal can become an obsession once the mind has established ownership.

      The Neurology of Ownership

      Ownership turns out to be about a lot more than just legal rights. When we own something, we invest a part of ourselves into it – it becomes an extension of ourselves.

      In a famous experiment at Cornell University, researchers gave students school logo coffee mugs, and then offered to trade them chocolate bars for the mugs. Very few were willing to make the trade, no matter how much they professed to like chocolate. Big deal, right? Maybe they just really liked those mugs![2]

      Advertising

      But when they reversed the experiment, handing out chocolate and then offering to trade mugs for the candy, they found that now, few students were all that interested in the mugs. Apparently the key thing about the mugs or the chocolate wasn’t whether students valued whatever they had in their possession, but simply that they had it in their possession.

      This phenomenon is called the “endowment effect”. In a nutshell, the endowment effect occurs when we take ownership of an object (or idea, or person); in becoming “ours” it becomes integrated with our sense of identity, making us reluctant to part with it (losing it is seen as a loss, which triggers that dopamine shut-off I discussed above).

      Interestingly, researchers have found that the endowment effect doesn’t require actual ownership or even possession to come into play. In fact, it’s enough to have a reasonable expectation of future possession for us to start thinking of something as a part of us – as jilted lovers, gambling losers, and 7-year olds denied a toy at the store have all experienced.

      The Upshot for Goal-Setters

      So what does all this mean for would-be achievers?

      On one hand, it’s a warning against setting unreasonable goals. The bigger the potential for positive growth a goal has, the more anxiety and stress your brain is going to create around it’s non-achievement.

      Advertising

      It also suggests that the common wisdom to limit your goals to a small number of reasonable, attainable objectives is good advice. The more goals you have, the more ends your brain thinks it “owns” and therefore the more grief and fear the absence of those ends is going to cause you.

      On a more positive note, the fact that the brain rewards our attentiveness by releasing dopamine means that our brain is working with us to direct us to achievement. Paying attention to your goals feels good, encouraging us to spend more time doing it. This may be why outcome visualization — a favorite technique of self-help gurus involving imagining yourself having completed your objectives — has such a poor track record in clinical studies. It effectively tricks our brain into rewarding us for achieving our goals even though we haven’t done it yet!

      But ultimately, our brain wants us to achieve our goals, so that it’s a sense of who we are that can be fulfilled. And that’s pretty good news!

      More About Goals Setting

      Featured photo credit: Alexa Williams via unsplash.com

      Reference

      Read Next