Tired in the morning and awake at night? Here is a REAL solution.

Chatsubo says on May 10th, 2007 at 10:45 am

You sir, have opened my eyes. I’ve had this most of my life. During my studies I could sleep how I wanted to, and I was very productive then. My working carreer has been vastly less productive, and I’ve often napped in my car during lunch. Thank you for finally pointing out what’s wrong with me.

Adam says on May 10th, 2007 at 10:47 am

Wow, I’ll have to look into this. I’ve had the exact symptoms you describe as long s I can remember, and it’s a problem. Thanks for the insight.

BrianArmstrong says on May 10th, 2007 at 12:53 pm

You’re welcome, and I know how you feel. My whole life I was thinking “everyone talks about how hard it is to get up in the morning, but is it really THIS hard fr them as well?”

This finally gave scientific evidence to what I was feeling for years, a great feeling. And 3 doctors I spoke with never knew what it was.
Brian

a11en says on May 10th, 2007 at 1:53 pm

Thank you, sir!

I think I got my behavior very young- staying up at night to finish homework when the family finally went to bed (often 9/10pm)… same for undergrad, except add in the almost weekly projects due, and the 4am or no-sleep nights…

Do that for 8+ years or so- so far I haven’t been able to fix it! I’ll try this! Thank you very much!!

[Finally, someone else has the same problem. I'd swear it was laziness before... ]

JaBbA says on May 10th, 2007 at 2:10 pm

I’ve been on a 26 hour circadian all my life. I have known this and just dealt with the narcolepsy in the morning and wide-awake at night, but it’s affected my health something fierce.

I’ll be trying light therapy as soon as I possibly can!

a11en says on May 10th, 2007 at 2:47 pm

BTW, if anyone finds info about specific wavelengths (like Apollo’s lights), can you post it here? Making a light out of LED’s couldn’t be simpler… paying $200 on a graduate student’s budget isn’t much fun…

[DIY light therapy here I come...]

a11en says on May 10th, 2007 at 3:23 pm

470nm blue (almost completely standard blue LED’s wavelength- short bandwidth = no UV exposure)… here’s a citation:

Optimization of light and melatonin to phase-shift human circadian rhythms, J Neuroendocrinol. 2003 Apr;15(4):438-41

“The findings showed that light-induced melatonin suppression in humans was sensitive to short wavelength light (420–480 nm) a response very different to the classical scotopic and photopic visual systems.”

Of course there are many more things to check now- intensity of light, duration, pulsed or continuous, etc…

These little suckers (led’s) range in price from around $0.45 to $0.70 or so at various places… Will let you guys know how I get on with the project.

Adam says on May 10th, 2007 at 4:21 pm

I’ve known I’ve had this for a while now, but I have to be very careful about how I go about it. I’ve been bipolar since I was about eight years old (now twenty-five), so not only does it make the consequences worse, but also exacerbates the problem itself. Light does work with me, but I still end up back in the nights. I’ve just kind of adapted around it through by scheduling everything in the afternoons and working for myself.

mike says on May 10th, 2007 at 4:38 pm

I’ve had these exact symptoms for as long as I can remember and as a 17 year old student it has been absolutely killing me. Thank you so much for the article!

smallsushi says on May 10th, 2007 at 4:58 pm

D: no wonder why I’m jobless, what do you people do? D:

Gill says on May 10th, 2007 at 5:12 pm

Wow, just wow, I’ve been living with those symptoms since I was in high school and everyone always just called me lazy. I remember trying so hard to wake up and trying to change my sleeping patterns, practicing getting up as soon as the alarm sounded, and a few other things just to end up in the same place I started. I am defiantly going to be looking deeper into this. Thank you again :)

Tico says on May 10th, 2007 at 8:38 pm

That’s incredible! It confirms my theory against my brother’s: I’m not crazy!.. :)

bucketgirl says on May 11th, 2007 at 2:47 am

I’ve known about DSPS for awhile but it seems like everyone I tell seems to think I’m making up some story to excuse how I find it impossible to wake up in the morning.

Thank you so much for venerating the concept and presenting a solution!

Dan says on May 11th, 2007 at 5:13 am

Interesting article! I’ve been reading a lot of praise about alarm clocks that wake you up with natural light, and maybe it’s time to try it out seeing this works so well for you. Being tired in the evenings and falling asleep isn’t a problem for me anymore. Getting a baby took care of that nicely! ;)

Also, where did you get that nice picture? I’m 99 % sure it’s from the subway in Stockholm, Sweden, so I was a bit surprised to see it here! :)

BrianArmstrong says on May 14th, 2007 at 12:45 pm

Hey Everyone,

I’m excited about the response and how many people it helped. Regarding the cost, yes the $200 price tag is high. I got my apollo go lite off ebay for about $100 I think. My friend who is a mechanical engineer also balked at the price and decided to build one for himself with blue LED’s, but I don’t believe he ever finished it.

To me the cost was worth it. I mean, how can you put a price tag on getting an extra hour every day and being alert? Over a life time, that could be worth millions.

Good luck!
Brian

oluxxx says on May 22nd, 2007 at 5:28 pm

wow, i’m very happy to hear about this. but i don’t have the money for it. still i think this would be the first thing I need right now. Can enybody tell how you can build tomething like the Golite by oneself?

jedge says on August 23rd, 2007 at 9:50 pm

Wow, I’m 15 and you pretty much described my life :( Now I just need to get my hands on $200…

Ted says on September 14th, 2007 at 11:22 pm

Wow, I’ve had this for years. My dad had it and his mother had it, but not nearly as bad as I do. They just described it as being a “night owl”. I can get 12 hours of sleep and I still wont be fully awake in the morning. I may not be tired, but my mind isn’t alert until it is dark outside.

Haha… two alarm clocks, I’ve done that. It gets kind of confusing when you wake up at 8 a.m. and have to fumble with both of them. I remember giving up once and unplugging both, only to plop back down in bed and miss school.

Thanks for the info, now I just have to see if light will work for me.

Spiff says on November 6th, 2007 at 11:38 am

Amazing post. I’ve been struggling with the same problem for years (I’m 32). Waking up is almost always painful. I’m dead sleepy, pretty much a zombie. Often feel more tired than when I went to bed. I want to sleep in the morning and have energy at night..usually go to bed at 2am when I’m sleepy or so and get up at 8am with the alarm clock blaring in the darkness.

Curiously, I’ve been looking into Dawn Simulator controllers and lights to see if that helps me wake up feeling energized for once in my life… it was interesting to find this post while googling for “wake up tired” tho.

svelter says on November 28th, 2007 at 2:21 pm

Thanks for posting this. I was trying to find lifehacks for going to bed earlier, as I just can’t seem to go to bed before 1 or 2 am. Since I’m supposed to be at work at 8, this is becoming a problem. I’ve been showing up later and later to work – sometimes as much as 3 hours late. It’s a terrible cycle.

I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve begun to feel hopeless – that I’m lazy and deserve whatever criticism is coming my way. Because it’s a problem that’s plagued me for so long, I remain a little bit skeptical. But I am hopeful that, once I can scrape together the funds to try this out, perhaps it will help me to obtain a more “normal” daily schedule.

Thank you for the resources and for helping us to know that it’s more than just laziness that’s keeping us in bed in the mornings.

GrimRC says on January 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pm

Vitamin D and optimise TSH.

Daniel Burgess says on February 2nd, 2008 at 12:56 am

Been trying to find out why i am still awake at 5 am and feeling really tired and just generally awful in the morning. Training to be a Primary School Teacher and having to get up early feeling full of energy has been impossible… i am seriously going to concider using this.
Thank You

sara says on March 26th, 2008 at 10:14 am

Just get a bunch of full-spectrum light bulbs and some lamps – maybe a multi bulb lamp. Get about 5 of the high intensity bulbs that emit about 1,500 lumens a piece and use those for 30 minutes in the am.

chaosgone says on December 9th, 2008 at 8:47 pm

Good article! I have noticed lately that I have had a similar problem. It’s probably due to the shorter days this time of year. It’s time to start using the full-spectrum light bulbs that I have.

Matt says on February 16th, 2009 at 7:15 pm

This is incredible…
It sounds like your reading straight out of my life…
I will DEFINATELY be checking this out. Always felt like this. I’ve been diagnosed repeatedly with chronic daily migraine and the whole ‘lethargy’ thing has always been put down to that. After reading this up a bit on the net, the problem I’ve been telling everyone for such a long time seems to have a name! It’s 11:14 and I feel so awake just in the last few minutes but I have to head off to bed soon, its the same story every night, and the same as all of these people commenting above.

Brian says on February 16th, 2009 at 8:20 pm

Hi Matt,

Keep in mind that I have since changed my opinion of this slightly. The blue light appeared to help the beginning, but it may have just been placebo effect because I couldn’t stick with it and it never worked for me long term. Whether this was me not sticking to it closely enough in the beginning I can’t say for sure. Just wanted to provide an update.
Brian

Rob says on May 18th, 2009 at 10:03 am

Hi Brian,

Have you tried anything else since your last post? After reading this whole thread I was disappointed to learn at the end that it didn’t work. I’m 39 and have experienced the exact same thing since I was in high school. However, I do find that in the summer I’m a little bit better (not great compared to normal people, but better when compared to myself at other times of the year) so the light therapy concept sounds like it makes sense. I was all ready to run out and buy a blue light until I came to the end of this page. I would love to hear if you’ve found other solutions. On to researching “micro-napping” now. I heard that could help night owl’s like us.

Brian Armstrong says on May 18th, 2009 at 6:41 pm

Hi Rob,

Nope I haven’t tried anything else…my “solution” has been to work for myself so I can keep the hours I want (working late, and waking up late). I wouldn’t completely give up on light therapy. Like I mentioned, the results with it were good at first. The first week is very difficult because for the light to work you have to do it early (at the right time of day) and you haven’t adjusted yet. So the first week is tough. I would fall out of the habit because at some point the weekend would come around and I’d stay up very late drinking, and the next day sleep till noon. Then it was hard to go back, especially since i had no job requiring me to wake up at that hour.

At one point I even tried turning it on my face while I was sleeping in the morning and this didn’t help.

I feel like it may still work though and would be worth trying in your case. See i you can grab an apollo go lite off ebay for cheap maybe? Post your results, I’d be curious to here it. Thanks!
Brian

HHH says on May 26th, 2009 at 10:55 pm

It´s pathetic to buy a machine for that matter of lighting up your life !!! I´m sure that 25 mins under the real sun is affordable for any and every human being. Unless you live in the artics or in Boston in winter time. If not, the excuse of lack of time to optimize your life because of work is stupid. No matter what 25 mins wont make you jobless or poorer !

USD 200 for a machine to correct sleep distress? Are we becoming robots?

Anyway, we could also direct the article (which is good and make sense) to a more healthier pattern of life…for the pc addicteds, we can still have a 3G modem, solar powered notebook in central park from 9:00 ~ 9:30 am.

icewater says on July 8th, 2009 at 6:12 pm

Yep, this article and a number of follow-ups here peg me exactly… Started when I was 17, almost impossible to be productive between 3p-6p. It’s doubly frustrating because sometimes I have to devote my own time to catching up on work.

I was actually diagnosed with this not too long ago and given sleep medication, but I don’t like the stuff. I want to get off it – in fact I did ditch it over this last (four-day-off) weekend – I’ll see how it goes.

I’ve discovered the “micro-nap”, mentioned above, on my own. It seems that if I give my subconcious about 15-20 minutes to kind of “check in” and take care of some underlying unfinished business, I do better during the day. I just prefer not to be discovered by Management asleep in my chair.

The lethargy during the “dead zone” is just profound. Occasionally I work from home, and I just do something else for those three hours and make up for it in the evening. At least that way I’m exchanging time instead of donating it.

How I long for the days when I could determine my own schedule…

Thunder says on July 11th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

What I have found with DSPS is that light therapy can be effective but with some people there can be another issue and that is either being blind or insensitive to light and dark cues. So still this problem will exist but it is possible to re-sensitize to light and dark cues.

kiwi_girl says on September 1st, 2009 at 7:46 pm

oh my gosh…. i almost feel like crying reading this!!! Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome is what I have suffered with since I was a child and I am now 22!!! Brian I know EXACTLY what you mean about when people say it is hard to get up in the morning and I would think “does everyone find it THIS hard?!” that is exactly what I wondered and wow it is such a relief to find out I am not alone. It is currently 2am where I am right now and I have to be up in 6 hours.

No matter what time of day I wake up in the morning, every single night is the same and I can’t fall asleep till the early hours. I used to think I was just an “extreme night owl”… but when I read about DSPS I realised I had it. I mentioned it to the doctor about a year ago, and just told him straight up thats what I have. But he looked at me like I was being a hypochondriact! Melatonin pills help guys so give that a go.

At uni I just used to make all my classes in the afternoon but when I begin primary teaching I won’t have this luxury. Wow so good to speak to people who understand this problem. I think I underestimate how much it effects my life… even with ex boyfriends they would find it so annoying that I would want to talk at 2 in the morning lol when they were trying to sleep… and I always do whatever I can to avoid early starts….

BrianArmstrong says on September 2nd, 2009 at 11:18 am

@kiwi_girl Wow that is awesome thanks for the comment! Glad it helped… Btw here is another article I wrote on it recently:
http://www.startbreakingfree.c.....with-dsps/

Do you use a computer at night often? I’ve noticed this has helped me to avoid this or dim my monitor while also using Flux:
http://www.stereopsis.com/flux/

kiwi_girl says on September 2nd, 2009 at 7:44 pm

Brian, thank you so much for this blog. I really appreciate it!! It is such a relief to finally know that I am not going crazy and I really do have DSPS.

When I read the other article about it, the whole time I am nodding my head like “yes yes you are describing me exactly!!” … My mother was always really sympathetic about it, and she even took me to a sleep specialist when I was 17. Who might I add was completely useless and just told me that if I can’t sleep then I should get out of my bed and sit in a dark room for 20 mins and go back to bed and try again. Crazy advice!!

When I came across an article on DSPS about a year ago I finally had that “ah ha!” moment…and yet still was in slight denial about it but now I know 110% for sure it’s what I have. And yes, I’ve had all the advice from people like my dad saying “if you go for a run before bed then you will exhaust yourself so much that you will fall asleep in minutes”.

What really shocked me was when I read somewhere that the average amount of time it takes for someone to fall asleep is 5 minutes (or something like that). I was thinking “Whaaat?! And it has always taken me 2-3 hours!” Yet if I go to bed between 2-3 am then I can fall asleep within minutes.

It is nearly 1.30 am here now and last night I only got about 5 hours sleep and although I was tired most of today…again right now I am wide awake. You are very lucky to be an entrepreneur and to be able to work by your own hours. When I begin teaching I am going to have to wake up at 7am every morning and that is the only thing I dread.

In high school, people often said I was always day-dreaming…and I wondered why I found it so hard to concentrate sometimes. But now I realise it was because I was always sleep deprived. I’ve spent my life looking forward to the sleep-ins on the weekend.

I have never liked the term “insomnia” because I thought once I fall asleep I have no trouble staying asleep and getting my 7-9 hours, I just always told people I had trouble falling asleep. Some people are understanding which is great but then as you said, other people think it is laziness or they just don’t understand it.

I was thinking today that if DSPS is my only problem then I am actually very blessed as so many people have various mental illnesses to deal with. It is like God gave everyone some sort of issue to live with and mine is just this. Most of the time I just pretend it doesn’t exist and don’t think about it but then if we are really honest with ourselves – it can affect so much.

I remember last christmas I was working in a clothing store and the manager asked who would kindly do the long shifts till midnight – I offered to do them all (10 days in a row of working till midnight). The manager was sooo happy (clearly she was a morning person lol) – and she thought I was being really kind but infact I was also very happy to be able to sleep in!

I think what makes me quite dissapointed and almost upset is thinking that there doesn’t seem to be a cure. I’ve tried sleeping pills (which actually work great coz the put you to sleep at an appropriate hour). Only problem is that it’s not healthy or good to take them every day – they are addictive and I don’t like to be on them.

Natural herbal supplements don’t work for me… melatonin worked a little I think.

I often am on my computer late at night because of my DSPS – but before I had my laptop, I was still up late. But thanks for the idea about the special light.

Ok looks like I am writing my own blog here so will finish up. Thanks again for making me feel normal finally!

P.S

Did you ever have strange sleeping habits as a child that might have influenced your DSPS? Because my mum says that as a child I would always want to be having a nap in the day (before the age of 5) and I wondered if all that sleeping in daylight screwed with my natural circadian rhythm.

BrianArmstrong says on September 3rd, 2009 at 5:20 pm

Hi again! Yep I totally sympathize with your story and glad you found it. I don’t recall ever having strange sleep patterns as a child (or my parents telling me about it). I’d be surprised if exposure like that early in life could continue to have an effect later in life, but you never know, it’s possible. You’re right that there appears to be no cure, but it’s manageable, keep in touch!
Brian

kiwi_girl says on September 4th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

Argh 2am here – still can’t sleep. Was sleepy at times during the day and yes now my body clock would choose this inconvenient hour to be WIDE AWAKE. Flip sometimes it is so frustrating I end up crying. Other times will enjoy listening to my ipod for hours… but just wish there was a simple cure. I read somewhere that sleeping pills don’t work but they worked great for me, only problem is they are bad for you and not good to get addicted so I try to only take one a month (if I have a very early start). Wish there was some way to be able to take them every night without any bad side effects :S

Sometimes I hate DSPS! Actually most of the time lol

morg176 says on September 8th, 2009 at 12:47 am

Hey Brian. A couple of things. Thanx for the blog it is bery helpful, my sleep patterns have always been off. Sleepy/lethargic in the morning and more awake at night.For many years I had chronic fatigue syndrome, which is devastating to your system. It is like a shifted circadian rhythm with total and utter exhaustion [without reason]. but you pick up a tiny bit at night. it is impossible to function like that. It was diagnosed that a genetic disorder was causing me to use up all my B12, folic acid and B6, to remove a buildup of an amino acid. I had 16-17x the maximum amount of an amino acid called homocyteine. Once th eexcess amount of this was treated i was far more alert through the day and could sleep better through the night.
At the moment it is all out of whack again and I am totally exhausted when i wake up in the morning and i spark up when the sun goes down. Im walking around like a zombie and have no energy or appetite to speak of, until night. but at the end of the day [1-3am] i end up going to sleep when i am wide awake. its like my day is backwards.
its hard to function like this. I believe at the moment, something medical is also wrong, seeing the doc today.

May I suggest something, Incase someone in here has the same genetic condition I have, and is unaware of it, as most doctors are unaware of it. it is called hyperhomocysteinemia. which means too much of the amino acid homocysteine [hcy] in the blood. easily treated. I would like to recommend that, as i did, people can get a homocysteine levels blood test. my amount at diagnosis in 2003 was nearly lethal. i believe it is one of the things that can cause chronic fatigue syndrome, but few people listen.

anyway, id love to hear youre coments, and if this sounds a bit confused its because its 3pm and im tired.
All are welcome to comment.

morg176

BrianArmstrong says on September 9th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

Very interesting thanks for posting your experience morg176! It seems there are a number of rare conditions that doctors may not always know about. Google is becoming quite helpful at self-diagnosing.

Brian

morg176 says on September 9th, 2009 at 9:15 pm

hey brian, it also made my eyes dry out completely for about two years, i was all but blind. The opthalmologist that i went to sent me to a specialist and he found the huge spike in hcy. had it fixed/treated [but chronic] in about 6 months, if i hadnt seen the eye doc, within a year i would have had a massive stroke

Get tested before you are 30yrs old as that seems to be when this hcy gets lethal [strokes, heart attacks etc] if that had not have discovered this i would have perished

Vanessa says on October 8th, 2009 at 5:48 am

Right now, I’m more than positive that I’m suffering from DSPS and looking further about it through the internet, I’ve found something called Chronotherapy. I’m just wondering if anybody here have tried Chronotherapy? It looks promising without having to use any drugs, it just requires you to sleep at certain times of the day till you get your body clock set. I’m planning to do it but then I’ve read that you would need medical supervision with it. Any thoughts?

Here’s a helpful link btw if you want to read more about it: http://www.geocities.com/delay.....erapy.html

Brian Armstrong says on October 8th, 2009 at 2:48 pm

Hi Vanessa,

I tried it a while back and it didn’t work for me with any sort of long term effect.

What has worked better for me recently is dimming the computer monitor at night. I think this is what was causing it primarily. You can see more in the comments on this page:
http://www.startbreakingfree.c.....with-dsps/

Good luck!
Brian

Jess says on November 8th, 2009 at 10:08 pm

This rings very true for me, I find that at night I am that much more focused and awake, and I draw and write better, and that trying to go to bed early just results in more lost sleep.