Where Are the Blokes?

Khaos Farbauti Ibn Oblivion says on July 18th, 2008 at 9:59 am

I sure can’t speak for the whole male part of our species, but i do read stuff here from time to time (still i’m quite new here) and even pick some useful tips now and then.

Still commenting is an entirely different thing as i don’t see what could be added to already well written posts. I guess we could say that a bloke will think “this guy is an expert so no need to argue with it”.
Either the bloke agrees with the posts or he doesn’t, but commenting is useless for him in both case.

As a side note, pictures of women might be a greater bait than pictures of trucks actually. (which is why we can see women on both the women and men magazines)

Shanel Yang says on July 18th, 2008 at 10:00 am

Funny post! Thanks for the interesting topic. I’m also fascinated with the differences between men and women and came up with a list of 100 differences between them at http://shanelyang.com/2008/04/.....and-women/

I’m not sure why more women comment on personal development blogs. I’ve seen way more men comment on JohnChow.com and Problogger.net and about 50/50 men v. women at Get Rich Slowly and The Simple Dollar.

I’ve also noticed that in the self-help sections of bookstores, more men are in the business/finance sections while more women are in the relationship/psychology/health sections.

Having said that, there is still, I believe, a certain “sensitive guy” stigma to personal development unless you teach people to walk over burning coals (like Tony Robbins) which is viewed as “manly” enough. And most guys don’t mind listening to whatever Bruce Lee had to say about being like water and other such self-awareness lessons (because they know he could whip anyone’s butt if he wanted to).

After all this time, most guys are more worried about making enough money before they worry about their own personalities or their personal relationships. Most women are more worried about improving their relationships with themselves and others than with making more money or pushing ahead in their careers.

I’m curious what others think, too. : )

Tim says on July 18th, 2008 at 10:02 am

I think most of your suggestions of why men and women treat your articles and workshops, and personal development resources in general, differently are correct. I’m sure there are nuances that would increase male participation, but the main reason for the difference is in the basic natures of men and women, which is something you can’t fight. I however disagree with your conclusion. Men need be men, and not feel any need to have to be feminine in order to live happy and successful lives. Stay true to your nature.

Brian says on July 18th, 2008 at 10:13 am

Dude, seriously? I think it just comes down to the way we differ when we take in information. Guys want small chunks of information we can take and digest somewhere. Women (typically) want to talk about it, and how to apply it. Hence hoarding and squirreling on one side, and commenting and discussing on the other.

I mean I can really only speak for me, but I just want to stop by via RSS to get a little nugget of information that will make my day better. It’s all I’m after. I don’t want to talk about it. no?

~B

Nathan says on July 18th, 2008 at 10:32 am

I think Brian is close to the mark. Men tend to evaluate the speaker and put fact in the “they are an idiot” or the “they are not an idiot” buckets. Most of us are scanning news feeds, picking up a general lay of the land, looking deeper only when necessary. A lot of my male managers in my organization look at their key metrics first thing in the morning and decide whether decide if they need to worry about this or look at other issues. A lot of the female managers want to dig in and discuss it with a group of peers or underlings. Men will look at supply costs and evaluate if the they think the number is good or bad then move on. Women will look at supply costs and determine what others think about the numbers. Yes, I am painting with a broad brush and there are exceptions to this rule.

-N

Dave Ewick says on July 18th, 2008 at 10:51 am

As a male in a female dominated industry (Libraries), I would say that women are more interested in improving themselves. Guys are too busy to be bothered with the long term stuff. I think it’s kind of like the idea that “real men” don’t ask for directions when lost.
I’m often the only male in the room during meetings, and some guys actually look down on guys in this profession, like we’re ’suspect’ or something.
One of my son’s friends told him he would have to give up 3 “man cards” for riding home from school in his sister’s VW Beetle, because Beetles are “girl cars”. Huh?! Luckily the friend was kidding, but there is still that kind of thinking out there.

Kris says on July 18th, 2008 at 11:30 am

Every comment so far has been from blokes (incl. me) and I find that pretty humorous – like a defense of some sort.

Like Dave, I work in a female dominated industry (read: writer/editor). As far as psychology and human nature are concerned, I’ve always been of the persuasion that men and women tend to be extremely similar in all upper level behaviors. However culturally and sociologically they’re very different (so really for sake of argument they are different).

Being in a feminine field, I’ve noticed women tend to be more collective and men tend to be more individualistic when it comes to ‘work’, the same type of thing as with asking for directions. (Although compare ballet to football – both require cognitive intelligence yet football could be considered more collective then ballet and men/women tend to gravitate towards either one of those… so really there’s a counterpoint to everything)

That being said, delivery seems to be also of importance to whom it attracts. In my experience, and article about improving your life tends to garnish more comments from my female readers and an article about how Benjamin Franklin improved his life garnishes more comments from my male readers. It’s really a toss-up.

Growing up with a name like Kris, being an artist and a writer instead of John Smith, being an athlete and studying physics has always put me in more feminine fields – so I can’t really comment.

Greg says on July 18th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

IMO, Brian probably hit the nail square on. In reading tons of articles everyday because that is all I’ve got to do at work all day because things slow way way way down in the summer at my job, I have commented twice (this being the second comment). I just don’t want to comment on things if I don’t find the discussion necessary, especially since a fair number of comments (not necessarily on this site) end up starting flame wars and I am just not interested in arguing on the net – So I don’t comment.

Though I do find the default avatar amusing…it’s quite feminine…who knows…maybe that is a turn off for the male commentators…just an idea

also…I’m not a hunter, I think monster trucks are ridiculous, and cage fighting is not as interesting as proper martial arts exhibitions or a scientific documentary.

But I absolutely REFUSE to see Sex in the City.

MS says on July 18th, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Disclaimer: I’m a bloke who occationally comments.

I did notice that the default picture for a poster is a feminine-looking shadow picture. Is is possible that seeing all of these women’s pictures next to comments makes the male-female ratio look more skewed to the female side?

MS says on July 18th, 2008 at 12:51 pm

It looks like I’m a bloke who can’t spell either. Occasionally, occasionally, occasionally….

Laura says on July 18th, 2008 at 1:05 pm

I agree with many of the comments, and am duly impressed with the blokes willingness to reflect a bit. But I think if you look past the purses and lipstick, you might find stronger similarities in your audience besides the fact that most of them throw, well, like a girl. Looking at the common experiences many women share brings up a few more possibilities.

Many women who work in a male dominated field feel, whether its true or not, that we have to work extra hard to be accepted and respected by our male peers. Being more productive means we can work smarter, not longer, to achieve these results, so self development is a higher priority for us.

Second, women still tend to be the primary care givers and household managers for their families (though this is changing). This means a whole bunch of additional detailed tracking that we need to handle (scheduling the carpet cleaning before the holiday, sending the birthday card to your sister in law, etc.). So yes, many women are looking for solutions to make the mundane bits of their ’second job’ consume as little time as possible in order to focus on more enjoyable things.

Lastly, women often form more social relationships at work, and are probably more likely to invite – you guessed it – other women! – when they sign up for your seminars. We just want to make sure we’ll have someone to go to the powder room with us, after all.

Oh, and the best suggestion I can give you for getting more blokes to your seminars – free beer!

Hayden Tompkins says on July 18th, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Women tend generally to be more interested in Personal Development.

Guys really respond to articles on manliness (a la The Art of Manliness), politics, science, etc.

Check out Dilbert’s blog – the majority of the commentors are men.

goodbyetoallfat says on July 18th, 2008 at 3:18 pm

“One of my (female) staff suggested that women ’search’ more because overall they’re not as happy as men.”

I’m not sure that “not happy” is the right wording, but women are always willing to improve themselves (bodily wise and emotionally). Women’s magazines indoctrinate us from an early age that there are “things” we could do to improve ourselves (and not just lose weight) and therefore I think women have slightly more open minds to personal development and change.

Perhaps a core section of “blokes” (really blokey blokes) tend to be more willing to accept themselves as they are — like: “yeah I’m a 300 lb big fat assed hairy chested balding trucker guy, but that’s who I am” …. whereas a lot of women would be wanting to change things / improve themselves if those words applied to them.

Obviously there ARE some men who go in for self improvement, there are even some men who write self improvement, weight loss and fitness blogs, but some of them stick to themselves, and don’t comment very far and wide other than to their own “buddies”.

I found this anomaly myself a month or so after starting my blog. I was aware from my stats that around 40% of my readers were men, but you would never guess it from the comments on my blog which were (at that time) 90% female readers commenting.

Like you, I actually started to mention in a couple of blogs “where are the men?” as I wanted to try and prise some of my invisble male readers out of the shadows + it worked !!

Well, worked a bit — I now have about 20% comments from men (sometimes 30% on a good day).

I did find, however, there are some male bloggers *more* likely to be regular commenters than others, and those ones seemed to be the most intelligent and well adjusted (and often married) — they were not worried that leaving a positive comment on a woman’s blog would somehow mean they were ‘interested’ in her.

Some of the male bloggers keep themselves to themselves and only comment on each others’ blogs in a small clique of blogs that they know.

“Perhaps the site needs less photos of sunsets and more images of blokes and their power tools”

Unfortunately I have to say the ONE thing guaranteed to get flocks of “bloke” attention and comments is not pictures of power tools, but pics of women’s BOOBS (you know it, I know it, the whole world knows it) and very smutty content — they do tend to comment on those types of blogs quite a bit !!!

Lisa Gates says on July 18th, 2008 at 4:15 pm

Great questions!

And here’s a girl comment:

Allison Armstrong is storming the world with her message about celebrating the differences/needs of women and men.

She would say to all of this that what we’re doing here right now is exactly what our true natures dictate.

Can’t remember where I heard this…about how men and women participate in meetings…but it could also pertain to blogs:

Men want to show their knowledge (compete) and women want to share their knowledge (collaborate).

2 cents

Raibaz says on July 18th, 2008 at 5:29 pm

I guess the point is the fact that usually posts here are very often exhaustive, so the average bloke doesn’t feel the need to add anything, while the usual female user can comment just to agree with the content of the post, which i think is a “female” activity.

My 2 cents :)

micah says on July 18th, 2008 at 8:19 pm

As a fellow dude who regularly reads this blog and other similar lifestyle tweaking blogs and has never commented on one, I have to echo what ibn Oblivion and others have said: why would we comment? If the advice resonates I will implement it. If it doesn’t I have to realize that I can’t hardly put a dent in all the bull**** on the internet by attempting to correct it one comment at a time.
That said, what the hell am I doing now?

Chris says on July 18th, 2008 at 10:20 pm

One male perspective:
I read and like most of what I see here. But there are too many words on the internet already (concise is a lost art). Yours are good enough for me; I can’t do better.

Dot H. says on July 21st, 2008 at 9:45 am

And also, most productivity and personal development bloggers are male, which fits with my theory on it.

In Western society, men are expected to know how to do things, not to ask advice (you don’t ask for directions, you’re supposed to know). Men are supposed to be the authorities, leaders, experts. A man is encouraged to be the one giving instructions, not taking them. To submit comments (already a subordinate position) in which you ask questions of the author (and even more subordinate position) is just not a position men are very comfortable with.

Women in Western society are taught that they aren’t good enough and will never measure up to others, especially men. They are supposed to be worried about whether they’re pretty enough, deodorized enough, feminine enough, dependent enough. They aren’t supposed to be, even nowadays, leaders, experts, scientists. They are supposed to constantly make themselves over to be more beautiful, better mothers, better wives. Women’s magazines even encourage women to make over their man. Do men’s magazines ever encourage them to make themselves over and make over their women? I don’t think so. Men are supposed to present the image of being in charge, independent, needing no advice, running things.

Summer Fey Foovay says on July 21st, 2008 at 11:02 am

Just my take – but supposedly 60% of Internet users are women these days. From that 40% of male users – taking the two men I live with and several others of my acquaintance as examples – 20% only use the Internet to find porn, and 20% only use Internet to play games and read comics. (I kid with love and affection, blokes, don’t get all huffy)

Mike says on July 21st, 2008 at 1:34 pm

@ Dot H.
An interesting viewpoint for sure.
I would argue however, that the opportunity for women to be in those positions not only is available, but is regularly taken! Sure, there are instances of family life, etc, etc, that promote the limiting of a women’s role to a simple housewife, but in this day and age of freedom, it is a rare occurance. In fact, a disturbing trend of men/boys in todays society is rising in my age group (15- 20). This trend is the lack of drive in a majority of men in school. Unfortunatly, it is the women now who are taking up the cup so to speak, and striving for top marks, not men. While there have always been women and men that did, and still do this, the fact is most young adult men around me have no will to do anything besides play video games in their basement.

So, perhaps while women are concerned about “whether they’re pretty enough, deodorized enough, feminine enough, dependent enough.”, the fact is that they can continue to do that, while the men keep falling behind. (This is by no means a stereotype of ALL men, and ALL women, but I’m sure you get the point.)

Mike says on July 21st, 2008 at 10:07 pm

Ah Mate,
You were doing well up to your “final thought” bit. Then you went and shot yourself in the foot big time.

Your suggestions unfortunately perpetrate the unhelpful belief that “correct” human or gender behaviour is that exhibited by females. The suggestion (even if tongue in cheek) to go see Sex in the City and to hug another male just promotes that these things are how it should be. By inference – that men will get it right and become better bloggers and more open if they do this feminine stuff.

There are distinct and longstanding gender differences regarding communication styles and emotional expression (irregular use of the latter does not imply alexithymia however). The big move in Men’s health nowadays is about how to communicate in ways that men relate to and are able to rspond to. As you can see from your article, your style of writing appeals to women. If you seriously want to communicate with men (and get them to respond)you may need to consider attending a course (lol). It’s not about one style being correct or one being better than the other. Blokes and women have differences but to bring out the best in either you shouldn’t use an approach that works well on one group and assume it’ll pay dividends with the other group.

Steve says on July 22nd, 2008 at 8:51 am

From what I can see of your site you focus on subjects like nutrition and exercise. A post I once read on a blog (though I forget where) made the point that when it comes to lifestyle improvements there is a strong difference between how the different sexes approach this.

Whether these differences are intrisic to a different approach between the sexes, or whether they are media led is something I dicuss further down (with any stereotype there will of course be huge exceptions).

Women tend towards dieting, have a focus on losing weight to look good, exercise in groups, follow a healthy lifestyle to lose weight, buy diet products.

Men tend towards eating healthily, have a focus on exercising to get fit, exercise alone and follow a healthy lifestyle for health reasons or to build muscles, buy exercise equipment.

I’ve probably summed up the original blog post terribly and I’m really trying not to be judgemental.

But if there is any truth in this then it would help indicate why your audiences are female dominated:

Women are the main audience for self-help literature, the latest diet fad, exercise videos etc. Men are more likely to just go out and exercise or change their diet while women are mor likely to discuss the issues with their friends, go on courses and buy merchandise.

The cycling and triathlon clubs that I am a member of are both male dominated. We have fantastic female members, but they are outnumbered by aout 10 to 1. My wife’s gym classes are skewed the other way.

I realise that this sounds terrible. I’m sure that there are many men who seek help and guidance and many women who just go out and train and who have never followed a diet, but there is a multi-million dollar industry selling diets and those are mostly focused on a female audience.

Personally I think that if this stereotype does exist, then it is media-led. People like you Craig have the ability to help highlight and change this bias – and I doubt that is as easy as using pictures of blokes with power tools!

Dot H. says on July 22nd, 2008 at 10:22 am

@Mike: Interesting point. There certainly are more opportunities for woment these days, though I still see the old insecurities being pushed at us. I’m not sure what’s being pushed at young men, or why they’re so unambitious. Do you have any ideas?

I know in the US there is a certain backlash against the Baby Boomer generation and a feeling that they have sucked up all the resources and so there’s no point in trying to achieve anything because it’s bound to be less, since that generation has taken more than its share, supposedly.

It’s so sad when people shrink from reaching their potential.

Andy says on July 22nd, 2008 at 4:51 pm

I’m a regular reader of Lifehack, but more of a lurker than active participant in the conversation. Sometimes another commenter has already offered the sentiment I might have added. Also, I’m several days late to the thread. Back to the power tools.

loqk says on July 23rd, 2008 at 3:42 am

i agree with most people here in most respects.

the ones i don’t agree with have presented their case in an excellent way that demonstrates forethought and consideration. thus, any counter argument will need to be long and detailed, and better presented in another medium.

if i agree with a statement, then adding to the dozen or more statements already indicating my point of view will not improve the discussion, and will make it more time consuming to read the entire post, thus countering the “saving time” ethic of this kind of post.

i post now merely because you requested, and not because i expect to add anything useful to the discussion.

(me male … ug…)

loqk says on July 23rd, 2008 at 5:39 am

I’ve just posted on another article and it has helped me think about the reasons I post. I like to post when an article is so poorly reasoned and against my principles that I feel at least mild outrage.

If an article is against my principles, but well reasoned, then I will be happy for people to determine the false assumptions on their own (good), either that or be forced to re-evaluate my principles. (even better)

loqk says on July 23rd, 2008 at 5:41 am

I’ve just posted on another article and it has helped me think about the reasons I post. I like to post when an article is so poorly reasoned and against my principles that I feel at least mild outrage.

If an article is against my principles, but well reasoned, then I will be happy for people to determine the false assumptions on their own (good), either that or be forced to re-evaluate my principles (even better).

Jason says on July 23rd, 2008 at 10:13 am

The entire self-help field, up until maybe the past 5 to 10 years has been marketed primarily towards women.

As a matter of fact, if it weren’t for a book written about anger management “for Men” then I might not even be here today. It cued me in to taking responsibility for my thoughts and actions, which encouraged me to take better care of myself.

From there I started running and then taking more interests in anger and stress reducing activities such as yoga and so on.

I’ve always shyed away from the chat room mentality, mainly because I like to keep my thoughts private.

It could be because growing up, I found that discussing emotions put me in a highly anxious or defensive state. Maybe that’s because I didn’t want to be perceived as if I couldn’t handle myself. Therefore, discussing feelings mostly came in the form of complaints about problems or requests for advice and information to solve them.

Darren says on July 30th, 2008 at 5:41 pm

Or, perhaps men:
1. are less likely to think they need “personal development”
2. or, while realizing the need for it, don’t think that going to a seminar or posting a blog comment is an effective way to do so

Speaking as a male and as a student of behavior, I think men tend to be more likely to think they can “just figure it out”, and less likely to ask for outside assistance. This is *especially* so when it comes to personal and emotional matters (there’s doubtless a powerful social motivation for this – boys are taught that such subjects are private, while girls are taught to be open about them).

I’ve also noticed that many women – possibly due to statistically better communication drives – tend to get a certain amount of satisfaction from communicating about how to improve something. Men, on the other hand, tend to be more results-driven, and so will communicate about such things only if it seems apparent that it will tangibly progress their goals.

Put another way, women get as much (or more) satisfaction out of *talking about* improving their lives as they do actually doing work to improve their lives; men, though, tend to “jump in” and work on the actual improvement. Typically, men will only turn to talking about such things if their efforts are fruitless enough that they’re forced to admit they might need assistance. Again, this is cultural training — boys are taught to be very independent, while girls are taught to be group-centric.

Both sexes could stand to learn from each other, and society could stand to pay attention to sex-role conditioning we give kids at a young age.